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jrtomI'm looking to have some conversations about the upcoming elections. (The US Presidential elections, primarily, although if there's anyone that wants to talk about WA Congressional or state-level elections, that's fine too.)
Most of my friends are, if not stalwart Democrats, pretty much in the tank for Obama. This means that I don't have as good a handle as I'd like on the views and motivations of everyone else: people that haven't decided, or that intend to vote for McCain/Palin, or that intend to vote for a third-party candidate, or that don't plan to vote at all.
If you are such a person, I would like to have a respectful conversation with you: to find out where you're coming from, and what your reasons and motivations are (and your fears, if applicable). I'm a bit of a political news junkie, so I've read any number of essays dissecting the mood of the electorate in various ways, but I'm not convinced that the pundits' and analysts' condensations of people's opinions are anything like the whole (or true) story. Anyway, ultimately it all comes down to people. You. Me. Everyone else here, whether you show up to vote or not. One way or another, we're all going to be living together after the election, and I think it's past time for me to learn more about you and why you think and feel as you do. Even if Obama were to win in a huge popular landslide--say, 65-35, which is unprecedented in recent memory--that's still more than a third of voters (and probably quite a lot of non-voters) that will really disagree with the outcome.
I freely admit that I am also an Obama partisan, although I do not agree with him on every issue. If you would like to ask _me_ where _I'm_ coming from (either my political philosophy, my feelings on various issues, or my own reasons for having decided to vote for Obama), that's welcome. I'd also be more than happy to help you convince yourself to vote for him, too, if that's what you want. (You are welcome, in turn, to try to convince me to vote for some other candidate, although you're unlikely to succeed.) But my _primary_ purpose here is to learn from (and about) people that are _not_ Obama partisans, not to proselytize.
People who support Obama/Biden are welcome to join in these conversations, but I want one thing clear from the start--to everyone, but especially to Obama partisans, because of my intended audience: be respectful, or your comments will be deleted. There's a lot of free-flowing anger and resentment, from a variety of sources and for a number of reasons. I want to understand those reasons and the opinions that underlie them, so please be respectful of them so that they'll be expressed freely.
If you fit the bill, and are interested in such conversations, feel free to post a comment to get the ball rolling, or to contact me via email. If you know someone else who you think might be interested, please point them here.
Let's talk.
Most of my friends are, if not stalwart Democrats, pretty much in the tank for Obama. This means that I don't have as good a handle as I'd like on the views and motivations of everyone else: people that haven't decided, or that intend to vote for McCain/Palin, or that intend to vote for a third-party candidate, or that don't plan to vote at all.
If you are such a person, I would like to have a respectful conversation with you: to find out where you're coming from, and what your reasons and motivations are (and your fears, if applicable). I'm a bit of a political news junkie, so I've read any number of essays dissecting the mood of the electorate in various ways, but I'm not convinced that the pundits' and analysts' condensations of people's opinions are anything like the whole (or true) story. Anyway, ultimately it all comes down to people. You. Me. Everyone else here, whether you show up to vote or not. One way or another, we're all going to be living together after the election, and I think it's past time for me to learn more about you and why you think and feel as you do. Even if Obama were to win in a huge popular landslide--say, 65-35, which is unprecedented in recent memory--that's still more than a third of voters (and probably quite a lot of non-voters) that will really disagree with the outcome.
I freely admit that I am also an Obama partisan, although I do not agree with him on every issue. If you would like to ask _me_ where _I'm_ coming from (either my political philosophy, my feelings on various issues, or my own reasons for having decided to vote for Obama), that's welcome. I'd also be more than happy to help you convince yourself to vote for him, too, if that's what you want. (You are welcome, in turn, to try to convince me to vote for some other candidate, although you're unlikely to succeed.) But my _primary_ purpose here is to learn from (and about) people that are _not_ Obama partisans, not to proselytize.
People who support Obama/Biden are welcome to join in these conversations, but I want one thing clear from the start--to everyone, but especially to Obama partisans, because of my intended audience: be respectful, or your comments will be deleted. There's a lot of free-flowing anger and resentment, from a variety of sources and for a number of reasons. I want to understand those reasons and the opinions that underlie them, so please be respectful of them so that they'll be expressed freely.
If you fit the bill, and are interested in such conversations, feel free to post a comment to get the ball rolling, or to contact me via email. If you know someone else who you think might be interested, please point them here.
Let's talk.
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(no subject)
Date: 8 October 2008 16:09 (UTC)If Iran bombed Israel, Israel would bomb back. We'd have a nuclear war and of course the United States would weigh in on Israel's side. Both McCain and Obama reassured on that grounds, but this is unsurprising. It would also be disastrous to the entire world.
The question I care about is Israeli preemption. Obama spoke to it more directly, but he responded by saying we should work to make sure it doesn't become an issue. He didn't say what he would do if Israel judged it necessary. McCain didn't respond to the issue at all, but we have Sarah Palin saying forthrightly that she'd support Israel through whatever they did, in the Charlie Gibson interview. And we've had other comparably strong assurances from McCain in the past.
By the by, what do you make of what Brokaw tried to frame as the "Obama Doctrine" (As I distilled it, "Humanitarian intervention is laudable but tactically foolish.")? Please let's ignore the garbled mess of the "McCain Doctrine".
(no subject)
Date: 11 October 2008 20:45 (UTC)* Were we notified ahead of time?
- No? Then that says something about the regard in which Israel holds the US, and perhaps what the nature of our response and support for Israel's actions ought to be.
- Yes?
- were we given the opportunity to suggest alternatives, or to offer assistance that might make such an attack unnecessary?
- were we presented with hard evidence that Iran was about to attack?
- was the force used reasonable and appropriately directed in our estimation?
* What were the reactions of other nations? Is Israel now in imminent danger of attack from Iran or from some other quarter?
I don't know what question you expect, or what complexity of answer, but the appropriate response depends so strongly on the conditions that unless you specify the conditions, I don't know how you might reasonably be satisfied.
Regarding the "Obama Doctrine": here's a link to the text of Obama's and McCain's answers to the "doctrine" question, for reference: http://armchairgeneralist.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/10/obama-doctrine.html
What that answer boils down to, it seems to me, is "We should do something, and we will if we can, but we can't address all such situations by ourselves; furthermore, our ability to materially affect the situation is much enhanced if we have allies and other countries that will aid if we ask for it, so we should cultivate such relationships."