Neal Stephenson interview on Slashdot

[jrtom]

http://interviews.slashdot.org/interviews/04/10/20/1518217.shtml

Both informative and damned funny in spots. For those wishing to jump straight to the funny bits, check out the answer to question (4):

In a fight between you and William Gibson, who would win?

Comments

[gwyd.livejournal.com]

Been reading my way through (and enjoying it.) Won't finish tonight, since my turns almost over.

The factual error in the Beowulf/Dante thing bugged me.

People in the ancient Roman Empire wrote novels. Not alot survive, since people with limited resources to save books tended to pick theology, philosophy, and classics. Examples in both Latin and Greek exist, including trashy romance novels, satires, and comedies.

[jrtom.livejournal.com]

My understanding is that there is a certain amount of disagreement among academics as to when the novel form was invented. In a class I took from her, Prof. Cogan of the UO HC referred to Aphra Behn's Oroonoko as being among the first novels. The Wikipedia article on the subject (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novel) does list a number of early novels from the period you specify, but notes that some would refer to them as "novel precursors". The Wikipedia 'First Novel In English' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_novel_in_English) page suggests several criteria which are often used to define "novel".

So I'm not sure that this is so much a factual error as a difference of opinion as to a definition--in which it appears that he's in good company, at least.

[gwyd.livejournal.com]

I still say the Greek novels I read fit the criteria for novel, being long connected narratives constructed around a central theme and characters, of a non-episodic, unified nature. As far as we can tell (from the small amount of material surviving), they are neither retellings, based on real events, or allegories.

What constitutes "fantastic elements," I wonder? I would like to point out that this excludes several entire genres of writing (horror, fantasy, science fiction, etc.). If strictly followed it cuts out almost anything not in the literary novel genre. For example, Wuthering Heights contains a ghost. I would still argue that it counts as a novel.

As I mentioned previously, if we're willing to count say Dickins (you can't tell me his stuff is wholely realistic) or the Brontes, the Greek novels should count.

The Latin survivals are more fragmentary, mostly due to the fact that they lacked the benefit of the Egyptian climate. Therefore, I will concede that Apuleus would be disqualified as "picturesque," and it's hard to tell what the true structure of the Satyricon was before time mutilated it.

I still claim that the Roman-era Greek material counts. We have all or most of five examples that read rather like a cross between Thomas Hardy and Dickins. (Pastural romance with various plot twists etc. dividing the lovers of varying degrees of probability).

[jrtom.livejournal.com]

I am so not in a position to be able to take a truly informed position on this, and I'm not trying to argue either side particularly. All I was trying to point out is that, as best I can tell, there's a difference of opinion among reputable academics on this subject--the key word being "opinion". I respect your opinion, but I wouldn't say that Stephenson was guilty of an error of fact, just of being an adherent of a particular position...and I wouldn't be too surprised to find that he wasn't even aware that there was a controversy. (I wasn't until you brought it up.)

This is one reason why I'm glad I'm an academic in a subject in which "correctness" is not generally thought to be a matter of which school of thought you follow. :) (I'm not trying to cast aspersions or to denigrate other subjects; I just find that my own mindset is most compatible with CS and so forth.)

[gwyd.livejournal.com]

I suspect the folks arguing that way are not even aware of the classical material. The Greek novels were only discovered and translated about 15 years ago. (I can't be exact without going through a whole lot of boxes to find my copies.) My experience is historians seldom have a clue about what's going on in other historical specialties. It wouldn't surprise me at all if it wasn't the same in literature departments. Greek and Roman Lit classes tend to be taught by classisists anyway.

four dinarii from the cheap seats:

[colubra.livejournal.com]

This is a favorite topic of mine, so I really wanted to chime in: I got here through a mutual acquaintance.

To my view: if Oroonoko is a novel, then I must point out that Murasaki Shikibu's Genji Monogatari (The Tale of Genji) predates it by at least a good 400 years- and certainly concerns itself more with the nitty-gritty of human experience than Oroonoko does. It also has an overarcing narrative to the various episodes that make up the story: it concerns itself with the transformation of Genji's behavior and interactions with the world- how his experiences change him. From my viewpoint, Oroonoko is a proto-picaresque rather than a novel: it's part of that which begat a class of literature that begat the novel, so to speak.
I can't really speak to the Romans or Greeks; I've only read Satyricon which, as lethran mentions, is both bowdlerized and survives as a fragment of its original self. What I got from Satyricon did not meet the criteria of 'novel', though: it was episodic, it was not possessed of an overarcing structure. It wasn't one long unified story; rather, it seems to be a classical example of the picaresque form.

Re: four dinarii from the cheap seats:

[gwyd.livejournal.com]

I agree with you on Genji. Clearly a novel in the modern sense. I just get grumpy because Europeanists who specialize in the early modern people think their folks invented everything. I will agree that they invented a lot, but they loose track of other times and other cultures.

The nature of the Satyricon is wildly disputed, mostly because the fragments are not connected. Of the two sizeable chunks that remain, one is the famous dinner party; if memory serves, the other is a more fragmentary section where Encolpius and his boyfriend are cursed for offending Priapus and go on a wild adventure to propitiate him. We have no idea what happened in between. Is it a series of episodic stories like

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I agree with you on <i>Genji</i>. Clearly a novel in the modern sense. I just get grumpy because Europeanists who specialize in the early modern people think their folks invented <i>everything</i>. I will agree that they invented a lot, but they loose track of other times and other cultures.

The nature of the <i>Satyricon</i> is wildly disputed, mostly because the fragments are not connected. Of the two sizeable chunks that remain, one is the famous dinner party; if memory serves, the other is a more fragmentary section where Encolpius and his boyfriend are cursed for offending Priapus and go on a wild adventure to propitiate him. We have no idea what happened in between. Is it a series of episodic stories like <Golden Ass</i>, or a series of structurally connected adventures? I read it a number of times while I was working on my degrees, but I wouldn't want to guess. Other chunks center around the boyfriend picking up a gimpy slave for sex and generally being unfaithful. I suspect more than half the fun is imagining what sort of things might be in there. I admit, half the fun for me that year was watching the handsome young prof get turned on talking about it. He used to blush quite charmingly when he explained things or speculated on the missing bits. This was tenish years ago, so things may have changed.

The Greek Novels hang on coincidences, but are definately not episodic. I'm pretty sure this is the set we studied: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/glance/-/books/0520043065/026-4638278-9474012 (Mine is in a box somewhere). Sadly, the stats are skimpy, but this has a good description of the contents: http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/ancientnovel/mscott.htm These aren't High Art. They are romantic adventure novels.

Re: four dinarii from the cheap seats:

[deromilly.livejournal.com]

I'm interested in the new Greek translations. I definitely didn't know they exist.

For what it's worth, every one of my English Lit teachers who talked about the history of the novel cited Genji as the first example of a truly "modern" novel. I'm having a fog as to names at the UO, although my two High School English teachers, Ken Myers and Melba McConnaughey, cited it... Greek and Latin though? No, not really. They mentioned that it was possible, as so much was lost though, which is, apparently, something most profs neglected.

Oh, by the way... HI JOSH!! (If you remember me. I'll always remember you sailing through larps singing "Valderieeeee, valderaaah..." and no one getting it. )

~Romilly

Re: four dinarii from the cheap seats:

[jrtom.livejournal.com]

Of course I remember you, Romilly. Not in exhaustive detail, but I'm pretty sure I could still pick you out of a crowd. :) How are things?

"Vaulderie": So glad you remember. I enjoyed that (not just the pun, or the singing, but the mystified looks--but things like that are always best if there's at least one person you don't have to explain them to). ;)

Re: four dinarii from the cheap seats:

[gwyd.livejournal.com]

* wrings hands gleefully*

There's this thing we can do!

Yes, I know it was another player (that friend of Adrian's), but I couldn't resist.

Re: four dinarii from the cheap seats:

[jrtom.livejournal.com]

You know, my major regret from that campaign (aside from the fact that Alex and I didn't quite manage to kill Grashal, and Rafael never returned so we could properly thank him for his hand in our demises) is that I didn't really do as much with my character as I could have. He had the potential for some serious head-messing. Ah well.